rant rant rant

[pez]

I'm completely puzzled by how the anime writers list functions.

I posted something there, and since I've become a "moderated" member due to a past incident, it means that the moderators will look through my post before they allow it through to the list. And yeah it was okay, so it went through. 2 people replied. And then the admin axed the thread, saying that discussion on this topic is against list rules.

O_O" So why did the mods let my post through in the first place? (I haven't asked. You'll find out later that I don't get to question why the mods do what they do)

Well I guess since the list owner said at the end of her axe-post "Mods and members please take note", perhaps the other mods aren't very familiar with the rules themselves. The rules keep changing anyway, it's quite hard to keep track of it.

Anyway, it was my mistake, being part of a group, not to check the latest version of the rules before I posted, so I wrote to the list owner to apologise.

But like I said, there was another incident in the past where I violated the list rules. It was me posting OT (apparently), then the owner axed my thread. I posted again asking why it was OT considering everybody else was doing it. She was pretty polite and clear on the list, but in her private email she was FAR from nice. I told her I didn't know what was off-topic because frankly the other members and mods were doing it as well, and she said "Your post just happened to be the point where I said enough's enough. That's really just tough".

Uh, okay. That's very nice of you. Maybe in the list you should've told everyone to stop instead of just doing it to me.

And then further to that, she said that mods have the authority, and I don't get to argue with them. Which of course is true. But when the mods too start going OT, where do you draw the line? I actually got confused about what is okay to say and what is not, and when I pointed that out to the list owner, she said "you don't get to comment about mod decisions on list".

Uh, okay, but at least tell me why it was okay for them to post very-OT things and not me.

"In any event, do not dispute my decisions on list regardless of your feelings, and you won't run foul of me. I'm prepared to discuss things off list at any time - but if you do it on list, I will come down on your arse very hard."

Uh, why the need to threaten me with the last line, when she has pointed it out clearly in her list-post and 1st private email? Of course I did something wrong, but did I deserve words like that?

Another thing to point out is that when I politely replied to her 2nd email (the one about my arse), she didn't bother replying.

Uh, okay.

I've put that down to one major misunderstanding between myself and the list owner. I've got enough bones to pick with people in life, I don't need more in the cyberworld too.

But yeah, after all that, I really don't get how to use this list anymore. If every time I post I have to check the rules (which are VERY LONG) to see if anything has changed, I'd rather just forget about it. I like the type of info I get from other list members - they save me a lot of time on research by giving links to useful sites. But if I can't participate without worrying about upsetting people, then I don't know if I should stay in the list at all.

[ed: just checked the rules, they weren't actually that long, to be fair. I think when I signed up to the list I got about 5 individual welcome emails with rules and guidelines. That was what gave me the impression of long rules]

Enough of net-silliness. Let's talk about the real world.

Ariel just pissed me off so much I can't believe I'm in a group with her for 2 projects. There was a group essay that we had to write, but since boss and I had done the topic last year I took our old essays together, put in new info and got the new essay done, all by myself. Which is fine, I don't mind and they don't mind. But before the deadline, I sent it out to the group members and told them to give feedback on it. Because it's a group essay. Ariel didn't reply, and didn't even answer her goddamn phone. I mean, I don't want to get blamed if the essay gets a low mark, so I want everyone to give me a nod before handing it in. Today was the deadline and I saw her in college and I told her off for not contacting me. Know what she said?

"Look I'm sorry okay? What do you want me to do now?!"

O_O That, coming from a 22 year-old on her last year to a masters degree. I felt like I was talking to a 10 year-old. I mean, at least a proper "sorry, I didn't mean to not call you and I won't do that again in our next project" would be nice, wouldn't it?

Sigh. I've said enough. I'm going to write some fanfic. That'll make me feel better. (although murdering Ariel will also do the same trick)

Comments

[yuki-scorpio.livejournal.com]

I know what you mean. I've just quitted the list as well. Not gonna stay in a place where I don't feel I get the respect a person should get. Some of the writers I love who joined had left earlier too, looking at the members list. ^^

[mirichan.livejournal.com]

I think we ALL have had problems with that particular person... on that list or others...

Oh and btw... I hope YOU are the Yuki who sent me the [drool] gorgeous Brad with a gun and Schu with his glasses on top of his head??? 'cause if you are, I'm gonna friend you right away ^_^ (I'm Manon, btw... you know, the new WKML mod?... the Miki-obsessed???!!!)

[yuki-scorpio.livejournal.com]

I think we ALL have had problems with that particular person... on that list or others...

So I've heard before... I try not to make judgements of people before I deal with them myself, and I can pretty much say that what most people say are right.

Oh yes of course! I didn't recognise your LJ name at first, but now I know who you are! *friends you right back* You sound like I literally sent you Brad and Schu, as in the real persons, not the pictures. *grin*

[mirichan.livejournal.com]

>>>You sound like I literally sent you Brad and Schu, as in the real persons, not the pictures. *grin*

^_^

Oh yeah... they ARE so damn gorgeous... I think I fell for both when you send me those pics.

And unless I'm pretty much mistaken, you had also sent me the Miki pics before... the ones where he was looking much better than usual [I'm not talking the one where I think his hair looked nearly pink or blue or something -- Bwahahaha].

And euh yeah... I dealt with the brunt of that person's lovely personality at least 3 times now... I *KNOW* what I am talking about!!! ^_~

[yuki-scorpio.livejournal.com]

*grin* Let's stop talking about her now. Not very interesting to talk about anyway =P

Brad and Schu, hmmmm? Like my new icon? *grins again like an idiot*

I can't remember about the Miki pics... I did have a stash of them, but I've deleted them all now. But I don't mind claiming credit ^^

Yeah, I'm just blabbing. The main point is to show you my new icon. ;)

[mirichan.livejournal.com]

>>>Yeah, I'm just blabbing. The main point is to show you my new icon. ;)

Bwahahaha!!!

And yes, I remember it was part of a bigger pic you posted on the list a while back ^_~

And it's fun seeing the glasses on the other for once... Brad looks very young minus them.

Hem, hem (for lack of a creative post-header)

[p-crocodile.livejournal.com]

I was thinking about joining the anime writers group, because somebody mentioned it on the wkkff-ml ... I'm looking for a list where you can discuss/work on your writing in a relaxed-determined atmosphere and it didn't really sound bad. Reading this, however, makes me reconsider - not because it says anything about the quality of the list, but because I don't approve of mods who rule by "make an example of one individual". It's bound to cause trouble/frustration at some point.


Group essays kill me. Every time. Must be another of those unwritten laws in the universe that they were, are and always will be a pain in the ass. *le sigh*

Have cookies. *offers*

Re: Hem, hem (for lack of a creative post-header)

[yuki-scorpio.livejournal.com]

I know I'll sound very pretentious if I say this, since I've just ranted all that, but it's hard to tell if something's good based on a one-sided judgement. I hate to give the impression that I'm disuading people from a group. The only thing I'm sure is that Yochan and I didn't like it there. Perhaps it'll be better for you. I don't know. ^^"

I hate group work too. I get really nervous about things that I don't do myself, and get frustrated with people easily. Kind of sad that the type of job I'm looking for will always involve group work *sigh*

I love cookies ^^ Thank you! (hmmmm, you remind me of the Oracle from The Matrix)

Re: Hem, hem (for lack of a creative post-header)

[p-crocodile.livejournal.com]

You don't sound pretentious. I'll look into the group, but definitely with in a more reserved than enthusiastic way. I probably don't know the people who post there; it was just the example of moderation which irked me, to put it mildly. I'm a mod on a few lists, some of which are very discussion-heavy and tend to go OT easily, and killing off one thread "just because it was one too many" never worked. If I'm going to be an asshole and play hard, then it has to be done with everybody. ;-)


Mm, I know that feeling. Then again, I have the hope that working in a group where people get paid might differ from ugh-do-I-really-have-to-spellcheck-my-part-and-include-graphs groups. *packs her frustration into suitcase and trodds off*

I liked the Oracle in teh Mtrx, but I'm generally obsessed with Oracles. *coughs*icon-point*

Re: Hem, hem (for lack of a creative post-header)

[nekojita.livejournal.com]

I hope you do look into the group. Again, in our defense, we don't go around making examples of one person, no matter what the situation looks here (which Yuki admits she is presenting in a one-sided manner). We make a point of trying to catch potential problems and emailing the person privately, not publicly going after them on list. The last thing we want is personal attacks, be it list members, the mods or even anyone off list.

Yes, we're a pretty heavily modded group. That has been an attraction to many of the people who have joined the list. The mod in question was doing her job, and trying her best to prevent this thread denigrating into something nasty. That's why that particular rule was instigated, after the start of the group. All of the rules are there to keep the list flame-free and being shut down.

We're not trying to be assholes. The rules are there to help shut down potentially troublesome threads. Besides the few rules that are made clear when people join, the list is open to anything dealing w/ writing, off-topic and otherwise. Discussion is appreciated and encouraged.

Re: Hem, hem (for lack of a creative post-header)

[yuki-scorpio.livejournal.com]

the list is open to anything dealing w/ writing, off-topic and otherwise.

That was one of the things I never really understood, and constitued to the incident between me and Tritorella, who just said in her reply to my LJ entry that...

... the three mods - Tritorella, Nekojita and Mikkeneko - make no apology for coming down hard on rule infringements, OT, or flames

So er... this issue about off-topic things... ok? Not ok?

Anyway, no more posts from me on this topic for now. I think my entry has given people impression that I want to ruin a group's image (even though I did point out one shouldn't base things on my one-sided judgement). Depending on how things go on private email, I might change this topic to private.

[nekojita.livejournal.com]

*sigh* I'm sorry that you feel this way about the list, and that it would be best if you left. In a way I feel this is all my fault, since I did approve your question. I completely forgot about not being able to discuss that thread. If my brain had been functioning, I'd have nicely emailed you privately and reminded you about it.

Can I please say in our defense that we are trying very, very hard for this to be a list that people can frankly discuss writings, w/out fear that the topic will lead to something even remotely resembling flaming? That's why that particular discussion was made forbidden, because on past lists, it has led to trouble. We're trying hard to keep this list from blowing up because of a misunderstanding. You know what they say about best of intentions....

Any way, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding, and my contribution to it. I wish you the best of luck on future writing endeavors.

[yuki-scorpio.livejournal.com]

In a way I feel this is all my fault

No, no! Like I said, I was responsible for checking the list rules before I posted. I shouldn't even have posted that for you to moderate in the first place.

If I blame you for it, I wouldn't have friended you ^_~

I understand the need to prevent flame wars. Some people do things the way anime_writers has done to prevent it, some people think that's not the way to do it. I happen to be the latter. I don't want to worry that what I post would be against rules, and to quote someone, "the critiques are a bit savage for my gentle tastes" as well. My leaving would mostly be because of this and the incident with the list owner.

I don't think this is your fault at all. Every list develops its own culture, obviously many people like what anime_writers has developed, but I'm not one of them, so...

[nekojita.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, I missed that you'd befriended me since you're all the way at the bottom! It's corrected now.

I'm sorry that the anime_writer's list isn't quite your style, and I can see your point. As I said, we're just trying very hard to make sure that people won't have to worry about a flame war. Too many lists have been ruined in the past because of things like that. Such a shame that a few thoughtless insults can ruin things for everyone.

I take it you're not seeing the WK concert this week?

[yuki-scorpio.livejournal.com]

I know. I think a lot of people like the list and are using it well. Like I said in my email to you, keep up the good work!

*sigh* No chance. I'm actually not that fanatic about the seiyuu, but it would've been nice to roam Tokyo with fellow WK fans. I know people who are there right now though. So lucky~~

[tritorella.livejournal.com]

The Anime Writers' list is very firmly, and very consistently moderated. We are trying to prevent personal attacks, any OT discussion, or any hint of spite or unkindness on list which would deter the less confident writers participating. We also don't allow non-writers to be on the list because we feel writers understand better than anyone how difficult it is to share one's creation with the world.

Therefore, the three mods - Tritorella, Nekojita and Mikkeneko - make no apology for coming down hard on rule infringements, OT, or flames. It's made abundantly clear in the rules that we will do so. Everyone gets the rules when they sign up, everyone on list is notified when they change. It means what we actually have is a list with relevant, polite and honest conversation which has been of considerable help to any number of new writers. Anyone who doesn't like the style of moderation is free to leave, or not join in the first place.

Of course, anyone who repeats or misrepresents the contents of private emails is also someone we would not want on the list either. I have no hesitation in banning any member or ex-member who violates the trust of other writers or members of the list in this manner.

As for the personal attacks referring to myself made by certain individuals here and at other times, I have no idea where the evident grudges have come from, but as I have had no interactions with the persons involved except to warn one of them about OT postings on another list I moderate, I conclude it's just their problem and won't comment further on it.