even with the risk of sounding elitist, I have to get this off my chest

[pez]

My god. I wonder what's wrong with people these days. It seems like as long as a fic has a high word count it automatically means it's awesome. I just read a long piece of crap that could've been written by five different people and then meshed together into one fic and apparently it's supposed to be amazing. Or so the comments say.

And I do mean it when I say it's crap. You know I don't publically bash fics often, because I think it's usually a matter of taste. But this one, it's got characterisation inconsistencies, more than a handful of typos, skippy passages (which aren't stylish or clever), unexplained character traits that are really important... the whole lot.

But take santa_smex for example. I haven't read a lot of it yet, but almost every fic that's too long for LJ and therefore has to get a webpage? Gets lots of comments. Not saying that long = crap (I love a good, long story), but do people feel obliged to say nice things even when it's crap because it's long and therefore the author must have made huge effort? Or does longness drown minds out and make them not see that something sucks? I can verbal diahoerra, too, you know. Would fandom bow at my feet for it?

The sad thing is, a lot of those who commented positively are people who leave feedback to me, too. Some are even from my own flist. So probably the standards of my own writing are just about the same. Well, shit.

Shit, I'm supposed to be asleep since an hour ago. Maybe that's why I'm bitching. Haven't been having a very good night (thanks, Hana, for talking to me). Now I have 4 hours to sleep before work.

Comments

[eames.livejournal.com]

Huh, weird, I often find the opposite, that if a fic has a high word count, people are more lazy and less inclined to read it.

With smex, most of the fics that had a high word count, IMO, (although I haven't read them all) got a lot of comments because they were good, unless there's a specific one you mean, and if that's the case, I'd be endlessly curious for mocking purposes.

[reposoir.livejournal.com]

Hm, I don't know. I find that often long fics get FEWER comments than short fics because people don't have the attention span to follow.

There's tons of long fics on smex that have very few comments- 4, 5, whatever- and the fics are 10, 20k long. As for the typos, well, as per the sign up rules people were supposed to have fics beta-read, but I know not all did.

I'm curious to know which fic you're talking about though, Pez. While smex had some excellent fics, it also had some...well...yeah.

[potter.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I often find that longer fics get fewer comments, too. I think it depends on how much time people have, a lot of the time -- I had a lot of people say that they wanted to read my Nanowrimo fic, for example, but didn't have the time for a 50,000 word fic. Obviously that's an extreme example, but I do sometimes find that fics over 11,000 words get passed over for a fic that takes less time to read.

[dynastic.livejournal.com]

I agree with the previous comments. I tend to find that people skip over longer fics, and read something shorter instead. However, I do agree with you on that longer fics have much more room for error. I'm very curious as to what specific fics you might be alluding to in saying this.

[yuki-scorpio.livejournal.com]

That's not the case though. When I look at santa smex, apart from the ones in the last few days, all the earlier ones that are long enough to get its own page got loads of comments. I don't know how it is in general, but at a fest maybe people feel more obliged to reply to long stuff.

[muzivitch.livejournal.com]

I, personally, skip over longer fics for the same reason I don't write them. It takes way too much time that I could spend sleeping writing.

But I do often see that the people who comment with longer fics tend to be overly impressed with them.

[yuki-scorpio.livejournal.com]

That might be the general case, but in santa smex, almost every fic that's long enough to get its own webpage (ie has a large fake LJ cut) get some 30+ comments. There is the chance that they're all very good, but comparing with all the ones that don't have their own webpages: there's one that got 32 and one got 26, but all the rest had about 5-10 comments at most.

My guess is that for a fest, people are willing to read even when it's longer, and more willing to comment.

There is something very strange going on here.

[eames.livejournal.com]

Thinking about this more, (sorry, I'm totally spamming you XD) if you're using smex as an example, I'm honestly not sure where you're coming from.

The first fic in the contest, for example, got a ton of comments because it was fantastic, but there are long fics that didn't, some that were good, some that were bad.

There are also short fics that were equally good and got nowhere near enough comments, and short fics that were, well... crap, and only got a few comments, too. I'm not sure I'm seeing a corrolation between length and quality, or amount of comments, personally. :/

But thinking about my own repsonse, I read on pairings, not on length, and if a fic was really long and not very good, I certainly wouldn't feel obliged to comment because of the length. Quantity doesn't equal quality, no matter how you slice it, IMO, and I'm not sure that smex was any more guilty of any other fics in general of a comment ratio that was skewed.

I suppose it's all down to perspective, really, but I really don't think the long fics on smex (at least the ones I've read) were commented on out of obligation because of the length. I read one long one, didn't like it, and didn't comment just because the person had maxed out a page or two.

Maybe not everyone does this, but if I don't like a long fic, I just hit back and don't comment. I honestly think people are lazy, and they'll only comment if they like something. I'm not sure I'm seeing the long fic = automatically awesome thing in smex, personally. Possibly because most of the long fics WERE good, I thought. :/

ETA: Oh, and also, from my POV, a lot of fics were Rikkai-based this year, it felt like. And short or long, I really don't like Rikkai, so the chances of me reading them are low, because I feel like I could leave a random 'that was cool' comment, but I always feel like I should say more, and since I would know zero about characterisation, etc, I wouldn't want to leave an uninformed comment.

Shutting up now. XD

(Also, when the reveals go up, if the person isn't on your f-list, you should totally make an entry and tell us which you're taling about. XD)

[yuki-scorpio.livejournal.com]

See my comment above.

I can't tell you which fic(s). Even if I lock the post, seeing that it's a fic fest and I don't know who the authors were, I don't want to risk the chance of upsetting a friend who might be the author.

[yuki-scorpio.livejournal.com]

Because I can't sleep, I went and did a tally of the number of comments. Classifying "long" as "too long for LJ and therefore got a webpage" and everything else as short...

Long (12 fics)
36
45
14
20
25
31
31
34
30
31
11
4
Average: 26 comments per fic


Short (23 fics)
9
7
11
4
32
17
7
14
6
26
10
18
12
8
21
5
10
10
14
5
19
4
9
Average: 12 comments per fic

I think there is a correlation there.

Even allowing long fics where the recipient may ramble on in multiple comments, it still can't account for a long fic getting over twice the no. of comments compared with a short fic, on average.

I'm not saying quantity equals quality, but how people respond to quantity in a fest.

[yuki-scorpio.livejournal.com]

I think for now, I'll just have to take it that good writers tend to produce longer stories in fests. Will have to wait till I've read all the fics to see if that's the case. =/

[eames.livejournal.com]

Hmm, to me, personally, it's that a lot of the shorter fics were shit. I hate to say it, but they were. There were some really awful ones there, and a lot of the longer ones (IMHO) were actually really good. I haven't read them all yet, so I will hold my hands up to a partially uninformed perspective, but I am certainly going to go back and look at said 12 long fics, because I really am wondering which you're talking about.

To me, although this is all down to perspective again, 'good' authors, whatever that means, tend to try and write something satisfying for their recipient, and that usually ends up being something that's explored in depth. People who don't like their prompt, (because I think we can't forget that some people might have tried really hard to write a long piece for a pairing they hate, which I think would show in the work) or think they're better than they are, might knock off a 5,000 word piece, and think it's great.

I don't think that length or brevity automatically makes a fic good, as I can think of one particular one that was on the website that (at certain parts) made me cringe with some of the language in it. Again, it's down to perspective, I suppose, what people like and what they don't. And there's not much anyone can do about people liking crap (if indeed this one is) fic.

If it ends up that you're talking about my fic after all of this, I'll totally slap you. XD

[yuki-scorpio.livejournal.com]

I've only read about 1/3-1/2 of the fics myself so far, as well, so.

You do have a good point there, that the longer ones are possibly generally better because of the effort spent on it. Perhaps I just had a bad experience with one of the very few long ones. =/

No, it can't possibly be yours. XD It's Rikkai!

Still. Urgh. Why did that one get so many comments. Argh. You know the feeling when you see familiar names who like your stuff go and gush about a story you think is rubbish? URGH.

[yuki-scorpio.livejournal.com]

(Yeah, I probably will tell you if the author isn't on my flist. XD)

[alice-and-lain.livejournal.com]

Huh. Well. I think I commented to most of the long fics on smex. I did so because I enjoyed them, not because they were long. In fact, I would've preferred shorter fics but that's not the way things rolled. I admit that I was more willing to comment to stories that I might not have commented in normal circumstances because it is a fiction exchange and I'm more willing to read stories out of my preference.

Now, I'm feeling insecure that people are laughing at me for writing my chatty comments.

[eames.livejournal.com]

I do think, because SS isn't publicised a huge amount, that a lot of the quality writers, or at least people who have a half working brain and the ability not to make a story shit, are attracted to it. And therefore, by default, the same people who care enough to look out for quality in what they read, make an effort to produce it, and respond to it when they see it. And because they make an effort to produce it, their fics are usually long and good.

I agree there's a corrolation between length and comments, but I can't help but wonder (at least for 80% of the long fics) if smex isn't the best example to use as a sample of data, because a lot of the long fics genuinely ARE good. I'm not sure that one or two badfics with a high wordcount and lots of comments makes a pattern, but that's just me. You've done the maths, and I can't be bothered to, because I'm a literature geek and not a science one, so I shall leave you to your data. XD

I had a feeling it would be a Rikkai one. You tend not to get up in arms about something else. XD Now I am verrrry curious. I am going to put aside my Rikkai-indifference to go and read some, I think, because I get pissed when people don't read my because they don't like Hyotei (*cough*totalbighint*cough*) and I think I should probably try and extend people the same courtesy, otherwise it makes me more than a bit of a hypocrite.

As for the comments this, hahaha, yes. Someone I respect as a reasonable writer commented on one that actually made me go D: with badness. Possibly, however, people are just being nice, as I believe it's in a lot of people to comment with encouragment if they feel bad someone hasn't got enough comments. I don't do that, but I can understand it.

[yuki-scorpio.livejournal.com]

Now, I'm feeling insecure that people are laughing at me for writing my chatty comments.

To each their own, really. Everybody's tastes is different.

I'd comment to the fic and say what I find wrong with it, but it doesn't seem appropriate because it's a gift for someone else and it's rude to criticise a present.

[yuki-scorpio.livejournal.com]

Will have to wait till I have the time to read all the fics posted. ^^" But hopefully yeah, the other long ones are good.

Would be bad though, when you come across the one I just read and think "this is so crap, and is totally why I don't read Rikkai!" XD

They aren't just being nice. They are leaving long comments saying why they think it's phenomenol! Man, I really want to leave comment to the fic saying how I feel, but it doesn't feel like the right thing to do when it's a gift fic for someone else. I don't go around criticising someone's gift for another person.

[fic-faery.livejournal.com]

You might have to consider pairings too when looking at comments. I know I didn't bother reading fics that didn't peak my interest with a pairing or school I loved. And a lot of the Hyoutei fic tended to be quite long this year.

[eames.livejournal.com]

I've actually narrowed it down to three fics, based on the specifications you posted, being Rikkai and of website length, and I don't think it's one of them, the other one 'seems' good, so I suspect I know which one it is, but I bet I'm wrong. XD

I don't go around criticising someone's gift for another person.

Except like you're doing now? XD *kidding*

No, I get you. I really wouldn't comment on something I hated, because there's several of the fics I would actually be asking what they were on when they wrote it. I think I'll have an informed, filtered bitch about a few things when the reveals go up. :D

[impressioniste.livejournal.com]

I can verbal diahoerra, too, you know. Would fandom bow at my feet for it?

Possibly.

The sad thing is, a lot of those who commented positively are people who leave feedback to me, too. Some are even from my own flist. So probably the standards of my own writing are just about the same. Well, shit.

This is one of the things I get the most discouraged about.

I agree with the bulk of your post, and more, (not in direct relation to the smex thing, since I don't do fic exchanges, but in regard to fic overall) but I'm too much of a coward to say it in public.

[mayezinha.livejournal.com]

I apologize for butting in, because you have the right to defend your matter of taste in writing. And this is the other side of the coin of taking writing as seriously as you do.

It takes a lot to be part on a fic exchange. I respect your decision of not participating because you claimed "having bad luck" at them, getting less in reciprocity for what you worked on; also that you decide the participants on a fic exchange, maybe that's the formula to prevent deadbeats and assure its quality, we'll see.

You took the time to get your data in statistics about the feedback, but I believe there are not absolutes in reader's comments. A fic gets you in a particular moment and because of it makes an impression on you. Or there's a particularity that makes you like it. Maybe in a second lecture you see the plotholes or the characterization's flaws. The typos irk me too, but I don't have the basis to comment on everyone of them because my own comments come out awful frequently and don't have the chance to edit them.

I'd like to see myself as an accomplice reader and cut some slack to fics. See what good may have -a description, an idea, only a character- or if there's none, take note of what NOT to do. I don't think is just "being nice" at all.

And I personally disagree when you say
So probably the standards of my own writing are just about the same.
because everybody has their own standard, I can't measure you equally with Pix, for example; it wouldn't be fair because everybody has their own background, life experiences and writing purposes aside their favorite pairings.

Fandom is supposed to be fun, and if we want it to have a revival or boost it up, we have to give chance to new writers to develop their work.

And who knows, maybe I would've had the balls to suscribe in this year's smex and be the suckiest fic of the exchange or be the one who got many comments: some of encouragement, some out of obligation from my betas, from people whose judgement you won't consider reliable or just a lurker and decide to comment because my fic said something to her.

I apologize again for the long comment, but there's one certain truth: there are no absolutes in writing. Less in fanfic writing.

[seraphim-grace.livejournal.com]

I read one, it was longer than most novels and it was like a train wreck, I couldn't stop
I was horrified but i couldn't look away
it appeared to be pron written by illiterate monkeys with blindfolds on, it kept referring to Snape as being furry (not hairy, furry) and super massively endowed - i swear he could have taken out large buildings and Harry in drag
I was horrified, and I couldn't look away

I'm with you that I love a long story, something to get my teeth into and have a good chew, but the problem with bad long stories is there's always loads more to read even when you want to stop

[seraphim-grace.livejournal.com]

I think you misunderstand, there are fics out there that are truly dire and there are fics that are wondrous and amazing and we don't take the time to encourage the good writers, but we do encourage the bad ones because we know with a little coaxing and a lot of love they'll become great too
it's frustrating when you've worked hard on something and bared your soul for all to see and it gets ....nothing. Fandom sucks it into a black hole
but then you see something that frustrates you because it could be better, or it should be better, or it would be better and no one has the heart to say anything that might improve it, or might discourage them.
Personally I encourage concrit, and you have to pretty much be incredibly offensive for me to consider it a flame, but not everyone does and some writers can take good concrit and run off crying thinking their shit and so we don't say anything

you're talking about ignoring the bad, but if we do we'll never be good, if we encourage the writers who write badly with no instruction we're not going to improve the fandom, we'll drive people away with "you don't want to read there."
I can think of pairings I have no issue with in canon that turn my stomach because of the way that they've been written, but at the same time, I'll forgive a writer a million typos for one beautiful sentence
and I like yuki_scorpio's writing, and worry that if a talented author like her doesn't get feedback where do the rest of us stand
perhaps we too should be writing bad pron where the rules of physics do not apply and spelling is more of a suggestion than a hard and fast rule.

[seraphim-grace.livejournal.com]

Also, I really like your writing
I even read outside my fandom because i like it
but I'm sure you know that, I think I told you that more than once but I don't know the others to compare

[strawberryjoy.livejournal.com]

Or does longness drown minds out and make them not see that something sucks?

Possibly the fact that someone has taken the time out to read a long fic means they're a bit more invested in it? And it was Christmas, so more people took the time.

I have no idea if longer fics routinely attract more comments but if you're looking for a relationshp between the number of comments on a fanfic and literary merit, then you're out of your tree. This is fandom; smut rules. Go prod a few serious Gen writers and ask them for their opinions on who gets comments!

[yuki-scorpio.livejournal.com]

XD The problem is, in my santa_smex example, smut is mandatory!

Then again, there's good smut and there's bad smut...

[strawberryjoy.livejournal.com]

So what you need to review is the ratio of smut content to fic length and then correlate that to comments!

[yuki-scorpio.livejournal.com]

I think there's nothing wrong with encouragement of any kind. The difference lies in what you (general you, not you specially) say in the comment.

I suppose this is entering more general terms now, since like I said in another comment, I wouldn't go leave crit on an exchange fic easily. Have done it before, but it highly depends on the situation.

But there is difference between "this show promise and you can do better (maybe elaborate a bit more)" and "this is one of the best things ever". If you comment with the intention of encouraging development, the former is far, far better than the latter. Of course, you can tell them it's the best thing ever if that's how you feel, but to see words such as "amazing", "phenomenol", "best" dished out easily just makes the words mean less, and the writer has no idea there is still room for development. They just go walk around with their heads up in a cloud. I can think of a few people who are like that. When you see, say, Pix or I, laugh about fic writers, it's usually those writers. They just think they're so awesome when they're mada mada dane. But it's hard to blame them when they have a crowd of people telling them they're the best, all the time.

(btw, my exchange being invite-only is primarily because 1) I have no experience in organising an exchange and can't deal with too many participants and 2) the theme of the exchange is somewhat controversial and it's something only few people can pull off.)

[chinawolf.livejournal.com]

There are some AWFUL long stories out there. I tend to prefer long over short, but not at the expense of the writing. E.g. I read a 90,000 word SGA story yesterday which was, well, never getting better than average despite my hopes and an interesting set-up, but I also read a perfect, simply astonishing 2000 word Entourage story.

Then again, I also think quality writing is a matter of taste, so when I'm feeling sappy I can read and love a story that I wouldn't read more than a thousand words of before stopping when I'm feeling serious. So I think a good share of the fics I do read and sometimes rec would seem bloody awful to me under other circumstances, which by the way I always find out whenever I go back to old fandoms - I reread a story I know I *loved* and realise that now that I'm not into the characters so much anymore, the story is lacking, as well.

[potter.livejournal.com]

Ah, if we're talking about santa_smex here, I'd probably argue that the long fics I read were good. I don't think long fics generally get more comments than short, but if a long fic is good, people get invested and drawn into the story, and maybe that's why the longer fics have more comments. Some of the shorter ones I read weren't as good, which maybe explains why they got less comments. But admittedly, I was a rubbish reader of santa_smex, so I probably don't have the best judgment.

That said, one thing that has always amused me about most fandoms (not santa_smex, just generally) is that bad fic often gets as many comments as really good fic. I think Pix once said that writers of a certain standard feel more comfortable with something on their level, and so respond to the bad fic and not the good, because the good intimidates them. I think there's some truth in that.

[yuki-scorpio.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I had a good think about it (4am wasn't the best time) and what you and Laura said have very good points. Am still making my way through the fics slowly and will try the long ones too, even though some are Hyoutei which I generally don't read. (Have clicked on FujiEiji and ZukaRyo too........)

It's probably true. I just wish people have standards that are easier to understand, though. There is a difference between "this is very enjoyable" and "this is absolutely amazing". When both the good and the mediocre, and maybe even the bad, are all "amazing", well, it's just not very amazing anymore...

[alice-and-lain.livejournal.com]

To each their own, really. Everybody's tastes is different.

Except, in this post, you're complaining about tastes.

You know, I'm pretty sure I know which stories you're talking about. I was thinking last night about what you've written here and there's another another angle that possibly hasn't been mentioned.

I think order of the stories for an exchange matters a great deal. Upon reflection, there are a couple of stories I probably wouldn't have commented to if they had been posted much further along in the proceedings. It's a matter of comparison, really, and how my expectations changed during the month.

I also think participation makes a difference. For an exchange, I'm more open to writing with mistakes/off-characterization. I'm more open to commenting. But if I'm just a watcher, I tend to not comment at all unless the story is really, really fabulous. Maybe I shouldn't be more open when participating.

[yuki-scorpio.livejournal.com]

Except, in this post, you're complaining about tastes.

Not as much as I'm wondering why people reply a lot to fics that aren't good, saying that it's wonderful. I wondered if they truly like the stories or if they replied because the stories were long. ie, if they were being sincere in their comments. If they say the same thing to fics that are of different calibre, then perhaps they aren't being sincere. Or that the fics are actually about the same in standards?

Order definitely matters. My impression is that the ones posted earlier almost always get more comments? That said, if a really good one comes along even towards the end when not many are reading enthusiastically anymore, it'd still get all the praise it deserves. It's the fairly-good and quite-promising ones that suffer the most when it comes to posting order. :(

[reposoir.livejournal.com]

Some of them, however, have multiple comments from the same people. I'm hesitant to call them this, but I will anyway- "spew comments", where they keep spewing on and on.

And yes, okay, there probably is some sort of sense of obligation to comment more on longer fics in fests, but for long fics overall, they do tend to get less comments than fics that can easily be read in one setting. Because a lot of readers are lazy and want a nice, shortish fic that can be consumed in approximately 2500 words, not ten times that.

[mayezinha.livejournal.com]

I'm not saying to ignore the bad aspects of a fic, there are ways to comment and maybe people go overboard. Or really an awful fic was the best thing they have that day, who knows.

It's already difficult to get comments on writing so it's more difficult to get real advice or crit that really can help you evolve.

Also you can have a bit of perspective knowing what to expect from people. There are people with their head in the clouds as you say because of all those "phenomenol!!!111" people.

Mainly my previous comment was because you said how people measure your writing. I measure you for yourself.

(You have your reasons and of course the theme is difficult, you're working with a blurry line over there)