So what was that all about?
Nov. 30th, 2003 12:38 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
pezHow it started: it was a discussion about characters' habits. Obviously I don't have access to the posts now. Somehow it got to the discussion of Youji sleeping nude. The mods and the members then started talking about the merits of sleeping nude, and how pajamas of different fabrics can get tangled up.
I posted, with a link to a picture of Youji's character settings, which shows that he does have pajamas. Tritorella (list owner) said that I was going OT. I responded on the list saying the following, and got a private reply from her.
> Having just read posts with 10+ lines on PJs getting tangled up and
> one post that has no reference to fic writing whatsoever, I really
> don't see how off-topic mine was. At least I pointed out that Youji-
> sleeps-nude isn't a given.
I'm not going to attempt to explain this to you, since you obviously
don't
understand the distinction. What I will do is refer you to the rules
where it says
the moderators have the final say. If a moderator says something is
straying
off-topic, it is straying off topic, and you are not to argue about it
on list. As the
rules also say, if you have a problem with something, you raise it
*off* list with
the moderators.
please don't do this again
Tritorella, List Owner
One thing to note is that it was my mistake to question her decision on-list. That was against the rules and I was wrong. I won't dispute that.
The fact that she told me she won't explain to me because I don't understand the distinction was really strange. If I don't understand then it's all the more important that it's explained to me, I think.
Anyway, below is my private reply.
Hi Tritorella,
You're correct that I didn't understand the
distinction. In fact I'm still not sure. It's because
of things like these:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anime_writers/message/332
Discussion on the merits/downsides of flannel,
Egyptian cotton and silk?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anime_writers/message/338
One-liner, with a self-note, and signature file that's
longer than the post.
What I don't understand is, I pointed out a common
mistake in belief by providing evidence (it was a link
to a jpg, not a site advertisement), but that was
considered off-topic. In the first example above, the
first half of the post is obviously off-topic too, yet
the mods participated in that string. All this talk
about snipping posts to save bandwidth seems to have
been forgotten... In the second example, I don't know
what the mods thought about it, maybe you thought it
was okay, or maybe you gave this person a warning. In
either case I wouldn't know. I'm now confused about
what's allowed and what's not. If in that reply of
mine I just said that Youji doesn't always sleep
naked, without providing the link, would that have
been okay then?
I understand the need to have tight rules. I also
understand that this is no democracy. I enjoy being
part of the list too, so I'm not going to leave simply
because of this. But perhaps I'm just not used to
being in a list like this. I'm sure I'll get the hang
of it soon.
=YS=
And here's her response.
> In the first example above, the
> first half of the post is obviously off-topic too, yet
> the mods participated in that string. All this talk
> about snipping posts to save bandwidth seems to have
> been forgotten...
First of all, I and my mods can step in at any point, and the thread
was going off topic, so I said so. Your post just happened to be the
point where I said enough's enough. That's really just tough for you.
Second, the mods are the authority. We'll make the call, not you, and
you don't get to argue with us. T Those *are* the rules.
Unless you are a mod, you don't get to comment about mod decisions on
list. I am not going to debate this with you. If you have a problem in
future, discuss it with me off list. No exceptions. Do it again, and I
will ban you. This list cannot afford on list arguments, it's the reason
people are prepared to stay because they trust us to avoid them and
flame wars.
Sorry you feel aggrieved. I personally think you are wrong. In any
event, do not dispute my decisions on list regardless of your feelings, and
you won't run foul of me. I'm prepared to discuss things off list at
any time - but if you do it on list, I will come down on your arse very
hard.
tritorella
My feelings about that email has already been said in my LJ earlier.
My reply:
> Sorry you feel aggrieved. I personally think you are
> wrong. In any event, do not dispute my decisions on
> list regardless of your feelings, and you won't run
> foul of me. I'm prepared to discuss things off list
> at any time - but if you do it on list, I will come
> down on your arse very hard.
I apologise for not bringing the matter offlist in the
first place. It was my mistake that I didn't follow
the rules. I think you have made that pretty clear on
list and in the offlist email, and my private reply to
you was done with respect of your authority in the
list, so there really was no need to say it the third
time with the additional description that you will
"come down on your arse very hard". But how about my
previous question: if my post didn't include a link,
would that have been okay then? And I ask this, again,
with respect, and I purely want to find out what I can
post and what I cannot, because I intend to follow the
rules and stay in the list without getting the ban.
=YS=
I recently found out that Tritorella never received this email, and that's why she never replied.
And then the next incident. Which is my fault. I posted a question about appropriate warning tags to fics, and didn't check the rules, which said that this type of question isn't allowed. Somehow the mod made a mistake and let my post through (not blaming her, it's my fault in the first place). 2 people replied to my post, and then the string was axed. I found out that what I did was against rules, so I wrote a private email to Tritorella to apologise. And here is her response.
> I want to apologise for posting the "Warning Tags" thread on the
> writers list. I haven't checked the admended list rules which is my
> responsibility. Again, I'm sorry about this.
Okay, accepted
tritorella
After much thinking, I have decided to leave the group. I received this message (automated I think) after leaving.
Hello
We are sorry that you have chosen to leave the group - if there is
something you'd like to mention as the reason, something we did or could
improve, we'd like to know.
You can email us by replying to this email if you want to do so.
Best wishes
The Mods, Anime Writers Group
I responded, sending it to one of the mods, not to the list-email they gave me. Actually I sent it to 2 people, thinking that they were both mods, turns out I was mistaken. I only got 1 of the mod addresses right. Here is my email.
Hello,
My reasons for leaving are here.
http://www.livejournal.com/users/yuki_scorpio/51827.html
I want to stress that I have no bad feelings for any
of the mods. I write to you two privately because when
I met Genkischuldich/Kat in person she told me you
guys are really nice, and of course because you are
the mods. I'm just worried that replying to the list
owner's email address will get me into another
unwanted discussion with Tritorella. What's been done
has been done, whether it was a disagreement or
misunderstanding.
Anyway, thanks for the work you've done for the list.
I got a lot of help with writing and resources there.
=YS=
At this point, obviously I have already written my entry in my LJ. This is what I received from Tritorella. It was CC to the 2 mods.
1. I did not get a 'second' note from you - did it ever cross your mind
that emails do get lost? I responded to the only note that I got from
you. What do you want, psychic ability from your mods?
2. You are now *banned* from the list, because private off-list
conversations are intended to stay that way. You were aware of the
rules, you broke them. My co-mod made an error in letting that post
through, and she acknowledges that. Everyone makes mistakes - but guess
what, not everyone whines about it in public and tries to do down a
group of people and a list just because you have a private grudge.
Repeat any portion of *this* message on your LJ, and I will report you
to the owners for abuse.
Now, please, get the hell out of my life, because you've been an
aggravation since I first encountered you.
Tritorella
I submitted a question to LJ Abuse Team asking if what I have done counts as abuse, and luckily it was fine.
My reply, to Tritorella and the mods.
> 1. I did not get a 'second' note from you - did it
> ever cross your mind
> that emails do get lost? I responded to the only
> note that I got from
> you. What do you want, psychic ability from your
> mods?
I didn't think about that. I saw the email I sent in
the "sent" folder, so I assumed you got it. If you
didn't, sorry about that.
> 2. You are now *banned* from the list, because
> private off-list
> conversations are intended to stay that way.
You didn't want people to know that you said you'd
hurt my arse? You unnecessarily threatened me, and I
can't tell people that?
You
> were aware of the
> rules, you broke them. My co-mod made an error in
> letting that post
> through, and she acknowledges that. Everyone makes
> mistakes - but guess
> what, not everyone whines about it in public and
> tries to do down a
> group of people and a list just because you have a
> private grudge.
I have said that I don't blame her. I have also
pointed out it was my mistake in the first place. And
I have said to those who replied to my message to NOT
judge the list on my one-sided arguement. How did I
try to down a group of people and a list? If you think
I whined, then fine, think that way.
> Repeat any portion of *this* message on your LJ, and
> I will report you
> to the owners for abuse.
If I can say how I feel about some things on my LJ,
where can I say it?
=YS=
And Tritorella said, again CC to the mods:
> If I can say how I feel about some things on my LJ,
> where can I say it?
Well, if you want to make your personal attacks public, you can hardly
complain if you get bitten by the person you are attacking. You have
attacked me, which I can handle, because your opinion is worthless to me.
You have attacked the list, which is utterly unforgivable. None of
those people have done you any harm, but you have harmed them, you have
slandered them and you have made them look like fools for being there.
More than that, you have shown yourself every bit as untrustworthy as I
judged you to be from your behaviour on the list, and part of the
nastiness and gossip mongering in anime fandom which makes it such an
unpleasant place to be. Congratulations for making my day - and that of a lot
of other people - just that bit darker and more miserable.
Don't write to me again, do not quote me, reference me, or link me or
in any other way associate your name with me or the list again. You've
done quite enough damage - I hope you feel it was worth it.
Tritorella
So I replied, only to the mods.
Well since Tritorella told me not to write to her
again, I feel I should just send this to the two mods.
It seems like I have caught you two in the crossfire.
Sorry. This will be my last private email to you
regarding this, unless I receive another private email
that I feel I need to address to.
> Well, if you want to make your personal attacks
> public, you can hardly complain if you get bitten by
> the person you are attacking. You have attacked me,
> which I can handle, because your opinion is
> worthless to me.
>_< I hardly consider what I said an "attack". What
she said to me in private email, so different from her
civil replies in public LJ or the list, were more like
attacks.
You have attacked the list, which
> is utterly unforgivable. None of those people have
> done you any harm, but you have harmed them, you
> have slandered them and you have made them look like
> fools for being there.
Since when did I attack the list? I even said that I
found the info list members gave me very useful. I
said that I think many people like the culture
anime_writers has developed... *I* feel that I'm being
attacked now.
> More than that, you have shown yourself every bit as
> untrustworthy as I judged you to be from your
> behaviour on the list, and part of the nastiness and
> gossip mongering in anime fandom which makes it such
> an unpleasant place to be. Congratulations for
> making my day - and that of a lot of other people -
> just that bit darker and more miserable.
..... *speechless*
=YS=
If you know me you can tell I have done very well in not making cynical and sarcastic remarks to each email, which I normally would have done. Anyway, this is the story. I was wrong, yes, but I don't think I deserved all that.
I posted, with a link to a picture of Youji's character settings, which shows that he does have pajamas. Tritorella (list owner) said that I was going OT. I responded on the list saying the following, and got a private reply from her.
> Having just read posts with 10+ lines on PJs getting tangled up and
> one post that has no reference to fic writing whatsoever, I really
> don't see how off-topic mine was. At least I pointed out that Youji-
> sleeps-nude isn't a given.
I'm not going to attempt to explain this to you, since you obviously
don't
understand the distinction. What I will do is refer you to the rules
where it says
the moderators have the final say. If a moderator says something is
straying
off-topic, it is straying off topic, and you are not to argue about it
on list. As the
rules also say, if you have a problem with something, you raise it
*off* list with
the moderators.
please don't do this again
Tritorella, List Owner
One thing to note is that it was my mistake to question her decision on-list. That was against the rules and I was wrong. I won't dispute that.
The fact that she told me she won't explain to me because I don't understand the distinction was really strange. If I don't understand then it's all the more important that it's explained to me, I think.
Anyway, below is my private reply.
Hi Tritorella,
You're correct that I didn't understand the
distinction. In fact I'm still not sure. It's because
of things like these:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anime_writers/message/332
Discussion on the merits/downsides of flannel,
Egyptian cotton and silk?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anime_writers/message/338
One-liner, with a self-note, and signature file that's
longer than the post.
What I don't understand is, I pointed out a common
mistake in belief by providing evidence (it was a link
to a jpg, not a site advertisement), but that was
considered off-topic. In the first example above, the
first half of the post is obviously off-topic too, yet
the mods participated in that string. All this talk
about snipping posts to save bandwidth seems to have
been forgotten... In the second example, I don't know
what the mods thought about it, maybe you thought it
was okay, or maybe you gave this person a warning. In
either case I wouldn't know. I'm now confused about
what's allowed and what's not. If in that reply of
mine I just said that Youji doesn't always sleep
naked, without providing the link, would that have
been okay then?
I understand the need to have tight rules. I also
understand that this is no democracy. I enjoy being
part of the list too, so I'm not going to leave simply
because of this. But perhaps I'm just not used to
being in a list like this. I'm sure I'll get the hang
of it soon.
=YS=
And here's her response.
> In the first example above, the
> first half of the post is obviously off-topic too, yet
> the mods participated in that string. All this talk
> about snipping posts to save bandwidth seems to have
> been forgotten...
First of all, I and my mods can step in at any point, and the thread
was going off topic, so I said so. Your post just happened to be the
point where I said enough's enough. That's really just tough for you.
Second, the mods are the authority. We'll make the call, not you, and
you don't get to argue with us. T Those *are* the rules.
Unless you are a mod, you don't get to comment about mod decisions on
list. I am not going to debate this with you. If you have a problem in
future, discuss it with me off list. No exceptions. Do it again, and I
will ban you. This list cannot afford on list arguments, it's the reason
people are prepared to stay because they trust us to avoid them and
flame wars.
Sorry you feel aggrieved. I personally think you are wrong. In any
event, do not dispute my decisions on list regardless of your feelings, and
you won't run foul of me. I'm prepared to discuss things off list at
any time - but if you do it on list, I will come down on your arse very
hard.
tritorella
My feelings about that email has already been said in my LJ earlier.
My reply:
> Sorry you feel aggrieved. I personally think you are
> wrong. In any event, do not dispute my decisions on
> list regardless of your feelings, and you won't run
> foul of me. I'm prepared to discuss things off list
> at any time - but if you do it on list, I will come
> down on your arse very hard.
I apologise for not bringing the matter offlist in the
first place. It was my mistake that I didn't follow
the rules. I think you have made that pretty clear on
list and in the offlist email, and my private reply to
you was done with respect of your authority in the
list, so there really was no need to say it the third
time with the additional description that you will
"come down on your arse very hard". But how about my
previous question: if my post didn't include a link,
would that have been okay then? And I ask this, again,
with respect, and I purely want to find out what I can
post and what I cannot, because I intend to follow the
rules and stay in the list without getting the ban.
=YS=
I recently found out that Tritorella never received this email, and that's why she never replied.
And then the next incident. Which is my fault. I posted a question about appropriate warning tags to fics, and didn't check the rules, which said that this type of question isn't allowed. Somehow the mod made a mistake and let my post through (not blaming her, it's my fault in the first place). 2 people replied to my post, and then the string was axed. I found out that what I did was against rules, so I wrote a private email to Tritorella to apologise. And here is her response.
> I want to apologise for posting the "Warning Tags" thread on the
> writers list. I haven't checked the admended list rules which is my
> responsibility. Again, I'm sorry about this.
Okay, accepted
tritorella
After much thinking, I have decided to leave the group. I received this message (automated I think) after leaving.
Hello
We are sorry that you have chosen to leave the group - if there is
something you'd like to mention as the reason, something we did or could
improve, we'd like to know.
You can email us by replying to this email if you want to do so.
Best wishes
The Mods, Anime Writers Group
I responded, sending it to one of the mods, not to the list-email they gave me. Actually I sent it to 2 people, thinking that they were both mods, turns out I was mistaken. I only got 1 of the mod addresses right. Here is my email.
Hello,
My reasons for leaving are here.
http://www.livejournal.com/users/yuki_scorpio/51827.html
I want to stress that I have no bad feelings for any
of the mods. I write to you two privately because when
I met Genkischuldich/Kat in person she told me you
guys are really nice, and of course because you are
the mods. I'm just worried that replying to the list
owner's email address will get me into another
unwanted discussion with Tritorella. What's been done
has been done, whether it was a disagreement or
misunderstanding.
Anyway, thanks for the work you've done for the list.
I got a lot of help with writing and resources there.
=YS=
At this point, obviously I have already written my entry in my LJ. This is what I received from Tritorella. It was CC to the 2 mods.
1. I did not get a 'second' note from you - did it ever cross your mind
that emails do get lost? I responded to the only note that I got from
you. What do you want, psychic ability from your mods?
2. You are now *banned* from the list, because private off-list
conversations are intended to stay that way. You were aware of the
rules, you broke them. My co-mod made an error in letting that post
through, and she acknowledges that. Everyone makes mistakes - but guess
what, not everyone whines about it in public and tries to do down a
group of people and a list just because you have a private grudge.
Repeat any portion of *this* message on your LJ, and I will report you
to the owners for abuse.
Now, please, get the hell out of my life, because you've been an
aggravation since I first encountered you.
Tritorella
I submitted a question to LJ Abuse Team asking if what I have done counts as abuse, and luckily it was fine.
My reply, to Tritorella and the mods.
> 1. I did not get a 'second' note from you - did it
> ever cross your mind
> that emails do get lost? I responded to the only
> note that I got from
> you. What do you want, psychic ability from your
> mods?
I didn't think about that. I saw the email I sent in
the "sent" folder, so I assumed you got it. If you
didn't, sorry about that.
> 2. You are now *banned* from the list, because
> private off-list
> conversations are intended to stay that way.
You didn't want people to know that you said you'd
hurt my arse? You unnecessarily threatened me, and I
can't tell people that?
You
> were aware of the
> rules, you broke them. My co-mod made an error in
> letting that post
> through, and she acknowledges that. Everyone makes
> mistakes - but guess
> what, not everyone whines about it in public and
> tries to do down a
> group of people and a list just because you have a
> private grudge.
I have said that I don't blame her. I have also
pointed out it was my mistake in the first place. And
I have said to those who replied to my message to NOT
judge the list on my one-sided arguement. How did I
try to down a group of people and a list? If you think
I whined, then fine, think that way.
> Repeat any portion of *this* message on your LJ, and
> I will report you
> to the owners for abuse.
If I can say how I feel about some things on my LJ,
where can I say it?
=YS=
And Tritorella said, again CC to the mods:
> If I can say how I feel about some things on my LJ,
> where can I say it?
Well, if you want to make your personal attacks public, you can hardly
complain if you get bitten by the person you are attacking. You have
attacked me, which I can handle, because your opinion is worthless to me.
You have attacked the list, which is utterly unforgivable. None of
those people have done you any harm, but you have harmed them, you have
slandered them and you have made them look like fools for being there.
More than that, you have shown yourself every bit as untrustworthy as I
judged you to be from your behaviour on the list, and part of the
nastiness and gossip mongering in anime fandom which makes it such an
unpleasant place to be. Congratulations for making my day - and that of a lot
of other people - just that bit darker and more miserable.
Don't write to me again, do not quote me, reference me, or link me or
in any other way associate your name with me or the list again. You've
done quite enough damage - I hope you feel it was worth it.
Tritorella
So I replied, only to the mods.
Well since Tritorella told me not to write to her
again, I feel I should just send this to the two mods.
It seems like I have caught you two in the crossfire.
Sorry. This will be my last private email to you
regarding this, unless I receive another private email
that I feel I need to address to.
> Well, if you want to make your personal attacks
> public, you can hardly complain if you get bitten by
> the person you are attacking. You have attacked me,
> which I can handle, because your opinion is
> worthless to me.
>_< I hardly consider what I said an "attack". What
she said to me in private email, so different from her
civil replies in public LJ or the list, were more like
attacks.
You have attacked the list, which
> is utterly unforgivable. None of those people have
> done you any harm, but you have harmed them, you
> have slandered them and you have made them look like
> fools for being there.
Since when did I attack the list? I even said that I
found the info list members gave me very useful. I
said that I think many people like the culture
anime_writers has developed... *I* feel that I'm being
attacked now.
> More than that, you have shown yourself every bit as
> untrustworthy as I judged you to be from your
> behaviour on the list, and part of the nastiness and
> gossip mongering in anime fandom which makes it such
> an unpleasant place to be. Congratulations for
> making my day - and that of a lot of other people -
> just that bit darker and more miserable.
..... *speechless*
=YS=
If you know me you can tell I have done very well in not making cynical and sarcastic remarks to each email, which I normally would have done. Anyway, this is the story. I was wrong, yes, but I don't think I deserved all that.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2003-11-29 05:44 pm (UTC)I did. ^^" The first time was inexcusable, the 2nd time... well it's a list about writing fanfiction, where you post your question about using English, or post request for help with characterisation etc etc. I posted a question on how to put warning tags, coz I have a fic where the character is dead, but the readers won't realise until the end that he's been a ghost all along. So I went to ask if I should've put [deathfic] warning to it (which ruins the fic's effect). Apprently they went through a similar discussion in October, which got a bit of an unhappy ending, so the list owner posted to say that discussion on warning tags are now banned. Me being the busy me, I don't check list emails all the time, and missed the fact that the rules have been updated.
Of course, having said all that, it's still every member's responsibility to check the rules. So yes it's my fault ^^" But even the mod seems to have forgotten about that rule, such a strange rule it is. Anyway. The first time was also my fault entirely. But like you said, she went to far with her language.
I don't mind her saying things about my "behaviour". I laughed when I read that bit. It's the fact that she keeps saying I'm ruining things for a whole group of people, even after I pointed out that I did say the list is good, that really irked me. She went as far as ignoring and snipping my email that said "And I have said to those who replied to my message to NOT judge the list on my one-sided arguement..." and saying "You have attacked the list, which is utterly unforgivable..."
How strange is that? You get accused of doing something, you point out that you haven't done it, they ignore what you've pointed out and accuse you of the same thing again? -_-"
no subject
Date: 2003-11-29 06:09 pm (UTC)*hug*
But don't let that person burst your bubble. It isn't worth it. =)