writing vs fanart vs doujinshi/manga/comic

[pez]

I'll try to describe this without it all being a massive jumble.

People who read stories can be very unforgiving.

By that, I mean when people read a story, they'll pick things out and ask why it "doesn't make sense" (more on that later), that something isn't explained enough, that the characterisations are off.

On the contrary, when things are expressed as drawn art, it seems like most can be forgiven: "I don't think Dave would really talk like he does in that speech bubble or reaction to Rush in such a way, but the pictures are pretty ♥ so I'm a fan of this artist anyway."

As someone who can only write, that is really frustrating.

About the making-of-sense: when I write in a "fantasy" setting I can happily accept that things don't map to the world as we know it. For example, I have no problems with saying that there are telephones and trains in the TLR world. So what that some bits of the game look unmodern? The ideas don't actively contradict with canon, and canon has things like visistones and researchers in white coats and teleporters. Also, I don't mind saying something like "they invented the car only 100 years ago, but now everybody travel by private hovercraft." It doesn't matter to me that after inventing the car, they need to have invented technology-A and technology-B before they can actually get to the hovercraft and that'd take way more than 100 years, because their world is not my world. I also don't mind saying that they have internet and computers but don't have TVs. It doesn't need to map.

But if I actually wrote that, what would the reaction be? And if that was drawn as a manga or doujinshi, what would the reaction be? I suspect that people would still recognise it as a "plot hole" in both cases, but in the drawn format they'll go "ah well, doesn't matter too much" and read on whereas in the fic format they might stop reading altogether.

Another way to describe it might be "imagine if Weiß Kreuz was a novel". Would it still be nearly as popular, what with obvious plot holes so huge that one can drive a car through?

I talk about this now because I'm trying to write a story and I'm stuck on how much making-of-sense it needs to be, whether a story can be just told as it is, without further explanation carefully weaved into the prose so that it's unobstrusive and doesn't disrupt the pace. I'm also wondering how long someone would stay with me until I get to "the point" - Dave won't sound like Dave for perhaps half of the fic. In fact he'll probably end up sounding more like Qubine. But there is a reason for it. Must I add a note in the beginning asking people to stick with me, or not bother? Usually I don't worry about these things and I see having to add extra notes as a bad sign. But this story is a pretty fun one and I would very much like it to be read, and not want someone to close the window within the first 2000 words saying "she writes Dave all wrong, she obviously hadn't even played the game."

Your views?

Comments

[solaas.livejournal.com]

TLR is a borderline steampunk world, of course you can have hovercrafts and phones! The way you used phones in (at least) one of your stories, it was hardly noticeable anyway. It was just there, it wasn't in the way and it didn't break the setting.

This new story, are you setting it in a mostly canon verse? Or are you jazzing it up a bit? In the latter case, I'll just point out that one of the best Richard IIIs I've seen (Sir Ian McKellen's movie from the mid 90s), was set in a mythical fascist 1930s England/Europe, heavy on the nazi symbolism. Sort of.

[yuki-scorpio.livejournal.com]

:)

What you're talking about though is that "this is acceptable because it's of the steampunk genre". But if in the story there is something that clearly contradicts with steampunk, what then?

I guess my question is, is something okay as long as there is a genre for it? Arguably there is a genre for everything, but... if something doesn't follow a clearly-defined genre would people start going "arghhhh what the heck is the author writing, it doesn't make sense"?

[solaas.livejournal.com]

No, I'm not talking genre. That up there is an argument I'd use if anyone complained. Just because I don't care much about genre labels doesn't mean I won't use them to poke others. Besides, it's hard to write something into a steampunk setting that contradicts it. Unless you add the starship Enterprise, or something. :)

Personally, I don't think you need to look over your shoulder to make sure you adhere to any one genre unless your project is to write a genre story. Different readers will enjoy and/or pout at different things, you can't please them all. As long as the internal logic of your story adds up, as long as your setting is internally consistent, then you're golden and can kick genre in the arse.

And as you pointed out, TLR has, canonically, Science! They have Scientists! who are researching the remnants and various metaphysical mumbo-jumbo. Who's to say they don't have a factory somewhere, leeching remnant power to build snazzy little hovercar convertibles for Dave & co to go cruising around in? Guy's already got a giant ray gun. :)

[yuki-scorpio.livejournal.com]

:D

The science thing is just an example though. Without giving too much away, I'm more concerned about the passage of time and what it means. Like, would it be too WTF if I said that nothing much changed within 200 years, unlike if we went back in time we'd end up in Victorian era and we and the Victorians would go WTF at each other? Or maybe I can say that if we went 200 years FORWARD, then not enough would change so us and future-people would just go "oh hai" rather than start screaming and running in circles. Would a reader look for explanations or would they accept it as that being how the world is in the story?

well in the defence of artists.

[amei.livejournal.com]

Uhhh, why is this frustrating to you? Because you think fanartists have it easy?

When I draw all out illustration fanart/comics, character relations, world building and design are pretty carefully planned out, so it's not like all of us just draw a bunch of floating heads in deadspace. Sure we probably -could- do that, and maybe it might even look good, but you'd still be judging the art for not being in character.

I say this with confidence because when I was in the megaten fandom I used to cop a lot of flak drawing 'OOC shit', got trolled on 4ch etc etc because I crossed over characters from two different games. (Who cares that I drew up over a hundred pages of backstory of why and countless character/setting designs for it!) I was mostly forgiven after the developers themselves crossed over the two games in a rerelease. Funny that.

While I can't speak for everyone, to me, both forms of media amount to the same thing; if your writing is good enough (and it is), or your art is good enough, I will stay to read/look at it. And in the end, well aren't we all in this for fun?!

PS. WK is still ridiculous to me after all these years. I had no idea it was even popular.

Re: well in the defence of artists.

[yuki-scorpio.livejournal.com]

XD I sort of knew this was coming and thought about adding a line that said "in no way am I saying that artists have it easy but". Maybe I should've added that after all.

To give an example of what I mean... are you into doujinshi at all? In Prince of Tennis, there's a circle called Maybism which I love because of both the art and the characterisation. There's a circle called Suiginrou whose art style I don't really like but I get all their stuff because of the great stories. There's also a well-known circle called Nana which I loathe, because it's drawn like the doujinka has never even read the manga. But in the fandom there is quite a bunch of people who love Nana because the art is shiny and they'll pay good money for the doujinshi. (IMO the art is as hideous as the stories, but that's probably not the point.) This sort of thing seems to happen a lot. =/

I suppose we're similar that both forms of media are as important!

4ch trolls absolutely anything, I bet your case is just bad luck. My friend got trolled because she is too good a cosplayer, to the point the conversation went "but she's got the character's eye shape done really well!" and the trolls went "well that's just makeup!" orz orz orz sorry that people aren't born with manga eye shapes? And if she didn't use eye make up she would've got trolled for it as well.

Looking back, I don't know why I ever liked WK...

Re: well in the defence of artists.

[amei.livejournal.com]

Maybe you should have, because that's how the original post seemed to dismiss artists as just being surface prettiness.

I love doujinshi. Make it, buy it, read it (with the help of translator friends), there's good and bad ones out there.

Anyway to take your point re:doujinshi and apply it to writing, say that this was writing. A person writes pretty good but the characters completely OOC, some people love it. From my experience I think this happens pretty often in writing too! But the real question is, do you really care what these people think? Surface consumers are just that, ultimately isn't it more rewarding to get readers who can appreciate the depth of worldbuilding and care to character relations you've put into your story?

Re:4ch, ahahahahaah No I'm pretty sure it wasn't just bad luck. Artists can cop flak too yanno. Megaten fandom is ridiculous like that, there was a lot of hate for this particular pairing.

Re: well in the defence of artists.

[yuki-scorpio.livejournal.com]

Oops, sorry...

A person writes pretty good but the characters completely OOC

A name immediately comes to mind... >>

Yes, I get your point. Like I said in the post, normally I wouldn't care... (this would probably be more obvious if you've read my PoT stuff, some of which are kind of just "Pez has gone off the rails" and anon memes like to talk about my stuff) but this story's going to be fun and I'd like more people to give it a go. But I guess it's hard to satisfy everyone.

People spend far too much time hating. If only they'd just put that time to writing/drawing their own stuff that makes them happy, then there is no need to complain.

[sorceressnadira.livejournal.com]

There is one veeery true thing that Solaas said - that different people will like/dislike different stories and You cannot please them all. That's the main thing I've learned in all the years I've devoted to writing :) As long as You write correctly, Your story makes sense, it flows and is sensible within the borders You drew - I think it's okay.

About the time passing - it really depends on the view, so I think both approaches (the one when You say 'nothing changed much' and 'there were so many changes') are good at some point. (There's always someone, who's going to complain, though.)

In my opinion, the difference between the writing work and the painted one is that most of the people don't know how to draw or paint, so they don't criticise artworks, simply because they don't know how to. I don't know how to paint - and all I can say to the painter is: "I like it" or "I dislike it", but it won't turn into an elaborative comment. On the other hand, almost everyone thinks they can write (after all, piling those letters up is not that difficult, eh?). They feel more free to criticise then, even if in fact they're not good at it at all...

Anyway, there is so many people who actually KNOW Your writing is worth it, they'll stick to the end of it. You can be pretty sure of that ;)

(Is it still going to be Utena? :P)

[yuki-scorpio.livejournal.com]

In my opinion, the difference between the writing work and the painted one is that most of the people don't know how to draw or paint, so they don't criticise artworks, simply because they don't know how to. I don't know how to paint - and all I can say to the painter is: "I like it" or "I dislike it", but it won't turn into an elaborative comment. On the other hand, almost everyone thinks they can write (after all, piling those letters up is not that difficult, eh?). They feel more free to criticise then, even if in fact they're not good at it at all...

THIS. Exactly. At least for the general audience, it's very true. Most of the time I forget about it now, like amei suggested above, because I care most about writing what satisfies me and the few people I'm writing for (that's not to say I'm not happy with comments from others), but this time I'm dithering a bit.

(It is still going to be Utena. Sort of. XD)

[sorceressnadira.livejournal.com]

[i]I care most about writing what satisfies me and the few people I'm writing for[/i]

For fanfiction that's the best option, I think :) Anyway, it's not only 'fan', but also 'funfiction', so it should be fun for the writer and his/her readers mostly, shouldn't it? I think once You leave a note at the very beginning, that things are going to be different at start, it will keep most of those uncertain and make them wait for the explanation.

[i]Some people say that words leave more room for imagination than pictures, though in terms of depth I really don't know... manga is always limited by page length (the mangaka is told they can only have a fixed number of pages every issue, and end up having to cut stuff out during planning), whereas writers are usually not limited by length, so you never know how deep the story/characters could have been if the mangaka had their own way.[/i]

I'm not really THAT into mangas, but I do know how writing influences imagination. When skilfully applied, it leaves twice the information than it seems in the first place - it's all the matter of right words, right context, small bits and drops of information that seem casual, but make reader think more about the character/plot/situation. I know I am trying to achieve that effect - and I guess that You too do so, consciously or not :)
In case of professional writers (not us, fanfiction writers) the story they write is then cut into bits and pieces by the editor, then smashed again and given to the author to approve :) Again, it's the skill of giving out info in indirect way that is important here.
(An idea, if You want to try: think of a story, that would be consistent and had sense, but let it close at 5k sings. That's the thing I've been tortured with, until I learned how to write short forms. I'm still not too good at them, but at least I can make my thoughts shorter :P)

(Utena scares me a little, but knowing You, You'll surprise me. So I'm eagerly waiting to read it :) )

[animegoil.livejournal.com]

You know, that's a very tough issues -_-;; because yeah, I'm sure you have a reason for it, but will other people, who don't know your writing already and so don't have faith in it (lol), won't keep on reading, confident that you'll reveal your reasoning later. So it might be a good idea to say at some point exactly that, 'bear with me if you're having problems with Dave, there is a reason'. That might even work in your favor to get people to continue reading :/

That's the tough things about fanfictions. If this were an original story, there would be no problem because there are no pre-set expectations for how your character has to act, so there's no one judging you right off the bat on that -_-;;

[yuki-scorpio.livejournal.com]

Yeah... I think I might just end up doing what I usually do, which is la-la-la don't care about what people think. The alternative involves too much work and it might make me lose steam and not finish writing. =/ At least if I write it my way it'll get finished.

[animegoil.livejournal.com]

You have enough people that know your writing that you can do that for sure :)

and i just realized how mixed up I got halfway through writing that comment, cause that sentence makes no sense -_-;;

[sinistera.livejournal.com]

No worries, I am having the same issues with my D18 fic. I don't want to take away from the "D18"-ness but this is ... supposed to have a plot. But I don't to focus on the intricacies of business transactions and how nothing is as it seems. Not to mention, I'm sure that, if I do go back and cover my plotholes, 99.9% of the readers will not appreciate the little details.

[yuki-scorpio.livejournal.com]

We will confuse our readers together! XDDD

[crystalusagi.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think sometimes we fall into the whole "this is not canon" or "this is way off" thing and judge something before we're even finished reading the beginning. I know I did that with HP fic all the time, and probably missed out on stuff.

Reading a fic, I think, is a bit more interactive for me than reading a manga, just because you can often go deeper with the written words than you can with a picture. I think people are definitely more critical.

XD I don't know what my exact thoughts on this topic are yet, Pez. But this is an interesting point to bring up. I'll think about it.

[yuki-scorpio.livejournal.com]

Some people say that words leave more room for imagination than pictures, though in terms of depth I really don't know... manga is always limited by page length (the mangaka is told they can only have a fixed number of pages every issue, and end up having to cut stuff out during planning), whereas writers are usually not limited by length, so you never know how deep the story/characters could have been if the mangaka had their own way.

I don't really know which way is "good", but I'm leaning towards just writing it the way it is in my head and if people give up reading then people give up reading...

[crystalusagi.livejournal.com]

That's true. Then again, there are so many things that can be said with one facial expression that words can't begin to describe. So I guess it just depends.

It's best to write things the way you want to write them, because at least then you'll be happy with how it turns out. =D Have fun with it, Pez~

[uminohikari.livejournal.com]

For good writing though, if I know an author can write IC, I can excuse quite a bit of OOC-ness. I'd just assume that it's Something That Will Be Explained.