I'm a stupid foreigner (surfaces may have become slippery due to the adverse weather conditions)

[pez]

Liz, I read what you told me about this morning. Oh my God. XD

It's still really hard to get into Olive Riley's blog, probably because of the heavy traffic.


Not too long ago I was talking with Liz about how people use English. Personally I can't stand people who speak like this:

"People such as yourselves..."

"Yourselves"? What the bloody hell? While in some cases, using "yourself" and "myself" etc is perfectly reasonable, it seems like people are getting too scared of using the word "you". Is it too direct? Is it because you don't know when to use "me" and when to use "I", that you started using "myself", and so to balance things out you start to use "yourself" as well?

Oh, I'm clearly aware sometimes it's a style choice. It might even hint class differences. But some people utter these things when they're clearly just confused.

"I would like to thank you..."

Okay, so what's this business about "would like to"? If you're going to thank someone, then bloody well thank them. Doesn't "would like to" imply "I want to but I can't", or "if I could meet anyone, I would like to meet...", that sort of thing?

So what's wrong with "Thank you for..." or "I thank you"?

Okay, maybe that just sounds nicer or something. I don't know, I looked up WOULD in a dictionary and it's not helping. And then I read a report on a technical check (which means we tell them what they got wrong and what they should do) and I get monsters like this:

"[company] would suggest that the issue of the impact of ... needs to be considered."

Now, maybe I'm just a stupid foreigner. Just what is the WOULD doing there? In fact, why are we /suggesting/? The issue of the impact needs to be considered. We're telling them this, as a fact. So WTH?

Don't get me started on "I hereby enclose..." and "I endeavour to answer your queries upon my return." orz SOMEBODY, SHOOT THESE PEOPLE.

And then somebody is going to tell me, "just accept it, that's how English is done. It's like how people are ON the train when they're actually IN the train. DON'T QUESTION IT." ;;

Comments

[giving-ground.livejournal.com]

I keep thinking I must be poking at stuff too mercilessly because I'm biased and that it's not really too bad maybe. But but but. Then I look again. XD;;;

It's when people begin to commence that you really need to get the shotgun out. ♥

[yuki-scorpio.livejournal.com]

On days like this, I just want to have friends like Val, Unni, Crystal, Hana and everyone in the same room as us. And we can mock the hell out of it. Or I can do the mocking and you guys can all just be decent people and smile & nod. XD

......................I SHALL BEGIN TO COMMENCE SHOOTING MOMENTARILY.

[giving-ground.livejournal.com]

You say things so we don't have to. We appreciate your sacrifice, Pez. We really do. Anyway, those people should be more easily available in RL just generally. :|

...

OTZ

[yuki-scorpio.livejournal.com]

Pez - she mocks, so you don't have to.

Yes, yes. One day, there needs to be a gathering.

ALL YOU PEOPLE WILL DIE INSTANTANEOUSLY.

[seregil-1982.livejournal.com]

I personally have to admit to using all those examples above to a certain degree. though, I can see where you're coming from, because most things could be said in a more simple or direct way.

but for me, phrasing thinks differently (and consequently maybe even more difficult and artificial), shows how diverse and alive a language is. another reason might be the fact, that German is (at least in my opinion) a more verbose language than English. we have thousands of possibilities to phrase one request and hundreds of different words for the same thing. for me it only comes natural to try and transmit this into English as well.

a more personal reason for being long-winded is also the fact, that I simply like to annoy people sometimes and see them flustered, because they have problems understanding what I am talking about. it's my way of finding out how "intelligent" my opposite is and if I'll be able to have adecent conversation with them. other than that I fear it simply comes with the career that I am aspiring...^-^

the only thing that I could explain (froma a German language standpoint) is the use of "you" and "yourselves". you pretty much answered that already yourself, because it simply IS to to direct for me as a non-native speaker. I always feel impolite when using "you", because here in Germany we have two kinds of "you" for 2nd person singular. one for people that you're familiar and comfortable with and the other one for business and if you want to be particularly polite. so having no alternative other than to use the one word you have and being forced to feel uncomfortable and waaaaay too intimate with the other person, I'll try and vary my phrasing just to get my point across.

speak about long-winded, ne? *smiles and slinks off to continue learning*

[giving-ground.livejournal.com]

♥

A mass kidnapping is in order. Clearly.

[yuki-scorpio.livejournal.com]

*nod*

I think there is a difference between a versatile language and picking up bad habits, though. For example, because in German there are different ways of saying "you", and a German person hear people say "yourself" in English, they might start doing it too because it makes them more comfortable - regardless whether the "yourself" was used correctly or not.

I find this a pity, really. Because language is closely associated with culture and learning about a different culture sometimes means stepping out of our comfort zones. So I think it's better to learn to get comfortable with using "you" correctly, rather than... well, cop out and use "yourself" incorrectly.

[solaas.livejournal.com]

Ze Pezinator vill CRUSH silly girly-man, cotton-vrapped language! JAH!

...because that's what I think most of those are. Prettified and softened ways of saying things because being direct is so, dare I say it, crass and common. *sniff* Whereas we foreigners end up with wildly different styles of English, depending on what we encounter the most in our readings, watchings and other interactions with the natives.

Anyone who writes stuff like "I endeavour to answer your queries upon my return" in full seriousness should be taken out and shot. Such phrases should only be used tongue-in-cheek or at least 80 years ago. Or both, in the case of Oscar Wilde. ;)

[elyndys.livejournal.com]

Oddly enough, "I would like to thank you" sounds more sincere to me than just "Thank you" (and "I thank you" is just a very rare construction in English, to me it sounds... archaic somehow, or even sarcastic). "Would" just makes things a bit more polite by adding another word in there so you focus on the phrase more. That's what I like to think anyway! It's the reason why in English, like in Japanese, the more polite you want to be the longer the sentence gets ("I wonder if you could possibly consider doing me this huge favour..." XD). Though that's one of the things I hate most about Japanese. -_- される my arse! XD

It's so interesting the different issues people with different first languages have with English, because a European language speaker would probably never pick out "in" and "on" as standing out, even though they do use them differently... L2 language acquistion is so fascinating! /nerd

[yuki-scorpio.livejournal.com]

The lengthening in Japanese is more comparable to adding words that have meaning to them, though? "arigatou" becoming "doumo arigatou" is like "thank you" becoming "thank you very much" - which makes sense.

Whenever I hear "I would like to thank you", because of my understanding of what the word "would" means (expressing intention/wish/possibility), it just says to me "I would like to thank you, but I can't/won't." It just somehow implies there is a "but" behind it. So to me, it doesn't sound all that sincere. My impression is that because it is so widely accepted that it gives the impression of sincerity when it actually doesn't...

[solaas.livejournal.com]

Hee! We actually use the same (translated) prepositions re. trains as English! On the train = på toget. On the boat. On the plane. On, on, on. Or rather, på, på, på. I suspect there are historical, possibly case-related reasons for the random weirdness surrounding prepositions. I'm not sure I actually want to know, though. I don't have that many sanity points left... >_>

[yuki-scorpio.livejournal.com]

Trust me, there are still people who write that way. orz SOMEONE MY AGE, even. T_T

[solaas.livejournal.com]

It is probably your non-native ears that do this. It seems similar to how I have to stamp down an initial 'damn, this is getting sarcastic! when the polite terms get heaped on in Japanese (and English, too, for that matter, when you get above a certain level). My language doesn't do polite anymore, so whenever someone gets very polite one has reason to worry. >_>

[yuki-scorpio.livejournal.com]

Probably? All of this jargon says to me that although we are (theoretically) becoming more efficient at everything, we're losing our commands of words and the ability to really express how we feel, and so we load our sentences with crap, hoping we can be understood. -_-

[seraphim-grace.livejournal.com]

i have studied english language and i can tell you why it's mad (pirates, ar har, we stole it all, and having several linguistic roots because of invasion, both us invading others and vice versa). A lot of our linguistic rules are complete bunk because they were taken from other languages where they did apply but don't to the mishmash we have. For example splitting the infinitive, you can't split it in French, for example Vouler to want, because it's one word, but you can in english because it's two, but it's considered bad form. Or another one is the passive voice, which a lot of what you're talking about is, where it's not possible in the germanic languages and is thereby frowned upon in english.
I agree with elyndys it's more polite the longer the sentence, it also has the bonus of distracting you from the case in point, I was wondering if it will be possible, that you might, given the opportunity and with the correct materials made available to you, clean the toilet....
you've said yes long before you know what you've agreed to

but I was looking at this.
I endeavour to answer your queries upon my return
and can't help but notice that it's wrong, it should be I will, because there is no future tense in english, there is only future passive.
so it's "I will endeavour"
the one that gets me, "bear with me," obviously a panda is sat on the chair next to you helping with the work.
english is full of nonsence phrases, often lifted from other languages, that make no sense, if you try to understand it your brain will explode,
for example, as it were, as you do (usually following a description of something that's almost literally impossible - so i was paragliding down the face of Mount Kilimanjaro, as you do, when I crashed into a tree, so i was bareback riding zebras, as you do, .....)
the language is mad, it's a mishmash of other things and changes constantly quit whilst you're ahead.

[elyndys.livejournal.com]

I was reading about ーれる endings yesterday though and the only function they have is to make life more difficult for foreigners in shops and restaurants make words more polite. I finally realised why keigo was so difficult to understand! XD

I guess things like politeness are a lot to do with ingrained social expectation, so if you *think* it sounds more sincere, then... it does. As long as everyone's on the same page! XD I sometimes say "I want to say thank you" when I really want to draw attention to the fact that I'm very grateful to someone, because "Thank you" by itself is so throwaway. By itself it would just sound clipped, like a formality. I think the same is true with "please" - if you're really asking someone nicely to do something, you say "would you mind...?" or "could you/I...?" and sometimes don't say please at all. (Which of course, like you say, leads to jokers saying "Yes, I could." but not doing anything. XD)

[elyndys.livejournal.com]

Yes, when we lost our cases we needed to make up for them somehow, so we kind of nicked bits from all over, lol. In fact, that's the reason for a lot of weirdness in English - we have lots of ways of saying the same thing, because we can do it in the same way that several other languages do it. ^^' On the one hand, versatility for native speakers... on the other hand, a completely inexplicable language system. XD (Because the truth is... no-one really knows. ^^' It's lost in the mists of time~!)

[giving-ground.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I mean, I say "thank you"/"thanks" pretty often but when I say it it's quite hard to shake the feeling that I'm being overly brief and that it sounds as though I don't really mean it. "Please" also sounds rather... terse, I suppose, and too demanding in a lot of situations.

[semishade (from livejournal.com)]

There was an excellent scene in a film once in which ruthless gangleader Paul Newman humiliated his son (played by Daniel Craig) who kept saying "I would like to apologise" until he finally got the point and said "I apologise." People think that they're being more formal and polite but often they're just distancing themselves from responsibility for what they're saying. "Would suggest that..." basically translates as "we want to cover our back in case we're wrong."

I always give consultants a hard time when they use that kind of language because they're all being paid a lot more than I am and with those salaries they can damn well give me a clear recommendation!!!

I'd probably hesitate over "people like you" though. Out of context, it does sound a bit dismissive/aggressive.

[yuki-scorpio.livejournal.com]

XD I suppose there's definitely some cultural difference going on, as well as personality thing (I like things more straight-forward in general).

Usually I have no problems with "would you mind" or "could you please" etc - I always see it as asking someone for help/favour, and those phrases are good for asking~

[yuki-scorpio.livejournal.com]

*snerk* Yes, yes. I still think "I thank you" sound more sincere, even if it sounds a bit strange. (It used to make me go HUH? until I realised "thank" is a verb and so "I thank you" makes total sense. But I suppose since people are now just saying "thank you", adding an "I" in front would stick out weirdly.)

I have had a conversation with my boss before about this! Too bad the current piece of work is a collaboration between two teams. The things I produces are always straight forward and precise, the things the other team produce... well, they're the Safety team. They're probably taught to bulk-up their work with jargon and disclaimers.

^^ Most things can be, if taken out of context!

[yuki-scorpio.livejournal.com]

It's probably more important online than offline? In RL, body language and tone of voice can express so much - you can be saying "Thank you." rather than just "Thank you." and because you've put the emphasis on your tone and you have sparkly eyes, they know how grateful you are. When written, there needs to be more effort to express your thankfulness.

[elyndys.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I usually like things to be straightforward too, I hate when people say things and mean another (I can't deal with ironic songs, for example XD). My pet hate is those ridiculous metaphors like "a sea-change". Why can't it just be a change, or a big change?! That's the sort of thing that gets me personally, lol!

[yuki-scorpio.livejournal.com]

"A sea-change"? Wow, I've never heard of that... >_>

Sometimes it can be funny, though.

"Describe the colour of your car."
"Cranberry."
"Cranberry is a fruit. Red is a colour."

XDDDD

[yuki-scorpio.livejournal.com]

Liz told me the other day it should be ON the sofa not IN the sofa. But you can be IN a chair, IN a seat... DDDDDD:

I don't like prepositions. DDDDDDDDDDD:

[elyndys.livejournal.com]

Confusingly too, British English and American English seem to use them differently. Like in British English, you can't say "in back" of something, but it seems in American English you can... @_@

[lechaco.livejournal.com]

"I would like to thank you..." sounds like a lead-in for a speech or something. In any case, I would use it in a formal occasion where a direct "Thank you" might be too direct and a lead-in might be needed to soften it. It states the speaker's intention of doing something and then it's good to follow up with the actual action. For example, at parents' anniversary party, I may say:

"Father, mother, I would like to thank you for all those years you spent toiling and working to bring me a better life. If it weren't for you, blhablhablhablhablhab. Some more fluffffff and content. So thank you!"

Something like that. I don't think in that case it implies "I want to but cannot". It's just a polite "I want to".

I always feel like the polite forms for English are always more subtle than in Japanese for example. There's really no set "polite form". You just string together a bunch of words that make it less direct and somehow you have something that's more polite, usually with "would" and "could" though.

[solaas.livejournal.com]

Nobody likes them. They are a thing of the DEVIL! And yet, our languages are swarming with the confounded little buggers. DX