pez | *dodges rotten veg*

Neil Gaiman's (

officialgaiman) answer to a teenager about the inclusion of sex scenes in his book... whilst I haven't actually read that book and so can't say that much and so don't understand the relevance of the scene, if any, I can empathise with the girl, IF what she said about it being "irrelevent to the plot of the book" is true. Gaiman's answer of "the book's hero wouldn't have been born" is fair enough, but does it justify a descriptive sex scene - does it add to the plot?

Wait, don't lynch me just yet, read the rest of what I have to say...

I'm not saying that Gaiman's wrong. I haven't read the book, can't form any opinion. I'm guessing that his explanation about the relevance is correct. But what I'm trying to say is... that's one thing I'm always asking myself - if I include certain elements into the story, does it only beef it up in terms of length, or does it actually show something? If it's a sex scene, are the motives or consequences enough to justify it (if the story isn't meant to be erotica-centric), if it's violence does the attack/manner of death etc really do anything? Do I want to show the mental state of the attacker, how the ugly death affects those close to the victim, etc? Or do I just want this person dead and be done with?

On a completely unrelated note, people should learn to stop saying "actually" and "basically" all the damn time.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Dude, I don't have it here, but I think it is very non-descriptive. As in, a paragraph maybe, and with a PG13 rating. And it is important to the plot because it's a fairy seduction, and the book is all about the child of that seduction not fitting in. If the maybe two or three pages of the young bloke being fascinated and entranced by the fairy girl were missing, and it would just be said: kid goes to fairy fair, gets girl pregnant, infant mysteriously appears on his doorstep a few months later and is raised by him cause he could hardly let the kid die, and then the story starts - where would be the Fairy Tale in that (and Stardust is a fairytale).

I give you that most responses to the LJ syn entry were not really fair. But for a sixteen year old to say that Stardust makes kids want to have sex is shortsighted on her part. Like Neil, I much rather think that Stardust tells you *not* to be seduced that easily.

Oh I'm not saying who's right or wrong on that at all. Even though it seems the girl is overreacting, there will be many teenagers, parents, even teachers etc who'll agree with her whilst everybody else agree with Gaiman. And even if it's very very light sex scene, the arguement can go on forever (because parents never let go, yanno)

My point is, it just made me think. Too often I've read fanfics where sex scenes add nothing to the story and actually disrupts the actual plot. It annoys me and reminds me that I shouldn't do the same...

If a teacher at an American highschool deems the book to be suitable to juniors, then the book must be rather lightweight. But anyway...

I do agree with you - gratuitious anything, be it drama, sex or violence gets on my nerves when reading fic or watching movies. It's why I never could grasp the allure of Tarantino - senseless violence just leaves me shaking my head (whereas, for example, the battles in LOTR left me bored but I still think them necessary to the plot). If I want to read porn, I go read it, if I feel like plot, I know that I'm going to have to be lucky to find some good author (depending, of course, on the fandom, there are actually fandoms out there which have lots of plot-loving fics).

For me, the best fics are those which are realistic - if it's IC for the characters to have sex, let them have sex. Of course the question of how explicit you want the sex to be is hard to answer. Personally, I get terribly annoyed when I am reading a plot-driven fic that fades to black during the sex. (The Last Herald Mage series by Mercedes Lackey - I wanted to kill the author for not at least breaking through the R barrier... and whenever I re-read, I have the same feeling.)

I think you're doing rather well in your decisions, though. At least from what I can tell. Taking SR as an example, sure, you could have faded to black when Niou sat himself in Yagyuu's arms. And you needn't have included graphics so clear in the dream. But it's what makes SR and its characters come alive in the reader's imagination, makes them colour instead of black and white. And Niou without cussing wouldn't be Niou.

Hearing what American eduacation is like regarding censorship, you're probably right...

I don't think I've watched one single Tarantino movie! His things don't really appeal to me. If I manage to borrow a DVD off someone though I might give it a go and see if he deserves all that hype.

LOTR is something that tries to serve all kinds of audience. For me the movie's good, but still lacking on the emotional side because I like that sort of stuff. I bet for some they'll say there aren't enough fighting -_- when things are put on the big screen and shown to the world, it's hard to judge... movies are usually team work as well, and the producer/director, however powerful, can't control all the elements. Authors can (unless pressured by their agents/companies/fans) more or less do what they want entirely though. And it makes me go GAH when I read something that has a bit of, and not enough of, everything. It's as though the author has forgotten what s/he was trying to write in the first place =_=

Well you know realism rocks my boat too ^_~ Sexuality is very important in SR. Niou's decision to wank right there shows the complication in his character: he knows but also doesn't know what he's doing all the time; he disregards the effects of his actions on Yagyuu (or maybe he does know and wants to affect Yagyuu in such a way); he always squeeze his eyes shut and imagine it's Yagyuu and still does the same even though he knows Yagyuu really IS right there with him. Yagyuu gets that dream... it's the aftermath of Niou's seduction, and Yagyuu's wish to dominate in the relationship (Niou letting him be seme), his wish to actually be with Niou (even though he doesn't admit to it), stuff like that.

Well at least that's what I was trying to show XD!

*LJ-hops in from

scribblemoose's journal*

She's overreacting, in my opinion. I read the book when it first came out, and I was a few years younger then her. The sex scene in question is tastefully done, and the fact that he describes it helps you to understand the characters, and their motives later on.

And now, I shall ramble. *beams* *hopes you don't hate me*

If it's a sex scene, are the motives or consequences enough to justify it
Unless it's PWP, I'd say yes. In a romantic fic, a sex scene can resolve tension between the characters, or do just the opposite and make things worse. Then you have added angst, guilt, or confusion to work with. Well-placed sex scenes can also move the plot along, if it starts to lag. UST gets frustrating, y'know? ^_~

You can usually tell when an author sticks in a sex scene just for the smut value, and I tend to just skip over those. Just like in real life, sex isn't meaningful to the story or characterization unless there's something behind it.

if it's violence does the attack/manner of death etc really do anything? Do I want to show the mental state of the attacker, how the ugly death affects those close to the victim, etc? Or do I just want this person dead and be done with?
When you just want the person dead and done with, you tend not to describe the death and the impact it has. If it isn't important to the storyline, writers (in my experience, anyway) will gloss over the death of unimportant characters. For instance, it's a Youji/Aya fic, and employee changes within Kritiker are part of the plot. The author won't necessarily describe how Manx was killed, though, if the characters won't deal with the killer in the future.

Am I making any sense?

*crickets chirp* Well, this was fun. Bye now!

*LJ-hops back out*

For info, yes, Gaiman's answer is perfectly on the nail - it's in no way explicit and is crucial to the plot. But I understand your post wasn't about that.

So with regard to the relevance of sex scenes, yes, I agree they, like all writing, should pass the 'red pen of so what?' test. If they're not doing a job in the story, they should go. Which made me think about my own writing, and why it is that sex crops up so often. I made the following list of 'purposes a sex scene can have' which I'll post in my own journal to save space here. But suffice to say I was amazed at how much a simple bit of rumpypumpy can do for a story!

Thanks for a stimulating post. ^_^

The book seems interesting... *makes note to get it next time*

In the past when I edit my writing I used to have to delete quite large chunks because of their irrelevance, no matter how good the writing is. Now I'm better and don't need to do that so much anymore (it's hard to kill your own babies ~_~).

I can't wait to read that list!

dodges rotten veg

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